Interview with a partisan in the CHAZ, June 11th, 2020
Seattle People’s Department (photo courtesy of Francis)
This interview was conducted on Thursday, June 11th, 2020 as an encrypted Signal call with an individual referred to as Francis in the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone, or CHAZ. The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone is a police-free community space in the Capitol Hill neighborhood of Seattle, WA where participants are experimenting with how to envision and actualize a police-free society. The interview has been edited for clarity.
A.P.- What’s the situation like in the CHAZ right now?
F.- The situation in the CHAZ right now is tense. What’s happened within the last eight hours is the police have put units back inside of the precinct, otherwise known as the Dept. of People. We’re getting the run-around from the chief of police at this point in time. What happening is, anyone who’s not directly based in Capitol Hill or Seattle proper, we’re coming in to support each other, and putting some numbers on the ground to maintain what we’ve pushed for. What we have is an autonomous zone that is peaceful. There’ve been stories and spin of extortion rackets, demanding protection money from businesses, that the homeless are stealing food, etc. None of that is true. There is in fact a surplus of food and basic utilities for everybody that’s here, and it’s being freely given out. There’ve been local, leftist firearms organizations posting up people just in case and as a deterrent to people starting problems. These are people who’ve worked with the LGBTQ community before. One of the local orgs is the Puget Sound John Brown Gun Club (PSJBGC), which has been requested the past few years to provide security for the Pride Parade in Seattle. This is to convey to the police that they should not come to Pride, that they’re not welcome. People in the community are rallying and pulling together around this project from the Greater Seattle area.
A.P.- How did you get involved with the CHAZ?
F.- So, I identify myself as an anti-fascist, purely, which is interesting because I grew up in a household where conservatism was a religion. Subsequently, I was presented with some engaging conversations within the last couple of years that really shifted me. I started as someone that just wanted to be active and involved with what’s going on, whether that’s Black Lives Matter (BLM) or, with everything that is going on in the Pacific Northwest (Oregon and Washington) with the militia movement, III Percenters, Oath Keepers, Proud Boys, Patriot Prayer, making a difference on that front. My core values are based on the ideal that everybody gets their fair shot, which is not the consensus in many of these far-right militant groups. And even if they’re not far-right ‘militant’ in their explicit ideology, they are in their presentation and what’s been espoused by their members and many of the leaders of these orgs. Even if it’s not explicitly fascist, it’s fascist-adjacent. That’s not something I’m willing to step over in my own backyard. I’m raising a child in this area. Yeah, no, that can’t go. I’m not willing to deliver that as a fact of life to my child if I can do something about it.
A.P.- Did the CHAZ spring up more or less spur-of-the-moment, or was there some planning and foresight beforehand?
F.- I can’t specifically speak to that. The biggest thing I can say, because I’m a cis white male and can’t speak for everyone, what I can say is about my little group of like-minded individuals that we gather and spread information through. We specifically had a pow-wow in one of our groupchats, asking ourselves, “Why are we going to be here?” and our answer was specifically to back-up any of the BLM protesters because we’ve had experiences with the cops not enjoying us. Also, we wanted to share whatever information we could give, having been on-the-ground with gas, flashbangs, mace, all these different kettling tactics, just trying to help with the security of the BLM organizers. We’ve been basing ourselves in this, providing aid, providing food. I have some medical experience, so I have been out with bandages, first-aid kit, gallons worth of saline solution, trying to take care of people and get them out of harm’s way.
The moment we noticed it started to shift to a block party atmosphere, when we had the numbers, is the moment when it started to shift into its own thing. It was the Monday earlier this week, I just remember saying, “Wow, this isn’t just a protest anymore, this is becoming an occupation.” And it just kept going, just kept building, and all of the sudden it was, “Wow, the police have vacated.” They ran out of tear gas, then said they would wait 30 days, basically a 30-day ceasefire, and then two days later we were getting shot at again. But I can say we were all still very frosty, because we saw the writing between the lines, that the Seattle PD would no longer be firing tear gas. That has nothing to do with the local SWAT, nothing to do with the National Guard. None of us expected that this would last. All of the sudden, when the opportunity was there, we seized it and could say, “This is ours now. So what is the expression of what we’re fighting for (i.e. a police-free society) to be lived by the people here right now? What is it that we’re out to do?” Having the autonomous zone is the expression of what we’re all out in the streets for. If what’s seen is peace, community, people caring about each other within a four-block radius, then it’s because that’s the intention.
Black Lives Matter street mural (courtesy of Francis)
A.P.- What’s been the response of people who live and work in the CHAZ, those who weren’t instrumental in organizing it but happened to live and work along those blocks?
F.- The only thing I can speak to effectively is that I’ve got a few friends in the relative Seattle area that know that I’ve been involved. They’ve reached out to me after visiting the CHAZ to tell me how different it was, like the thickness of the air changes. Aside from that, I haven’t had the opportunity to talk to any business owners. Seeing the response on Twitter from a lot of the locals that have been interacting with the place, with Capitol Hill being a predominately LGBTQ neighborhood, I’ve seen responses from so many people along the lines of, “Me and my husband walked our dogs last night, and it was one of the first times I didn’t feel nervous on Capitol Hill.” Capitol Hill has a really rampant homeless issue, and I can speak to this as my girlfriend used to live there, that even with accompaniment it would be common to get lunged at by someone homeless and under the influence. Having the community out in such force has put all of the residents at ease, as far as I can tell. For the first time the community is really generating itself, rather than work here, live there, go to the gym here, favorite ice cream is right there. It’s evolved into something bigger than that. Really, looking out for each other, taking care of each other, it’s starting to carry out the functions of a community, the reasons why community exists.
A.P.- What’s been the response of the elected city officials to the CHAZ?
F.- First off, Durkan should goddamn resign. Literally, there’s a banner in Cal Anderson Park that said, “It has been zero days since the last time that the Seattle PD deployed tear gas. Thanks Mayor Durkan.” At this point in time, it’s shit. As for the elected city officials, two, maybe three are in support. The other downside surrounding that one is, because of the amount of businesses here, the huge businesses here (Amazon, Microsoft, Boeing, etc), there are a lot of bought and paid for city councilmembers. I know Amazon definitely has more than a couple. Overarchingly, we’re not winning the hearts and minds of everybody. But I believe that we’re winning the hearts and minds of the people that have those to lend.
A.P.- What’s been the police response thus far?
F.- Oh, they’ve been incredibly brutal. I made it a point to challenge one of them, after it came out that...I’m a nerd, love learning, so I’ll explain. One thing I dove down the rabbit hole on was Lt. David Grossman’s “Warrior’s Code” and Warrior training programs. He was a peacetime Green Beret, deployed just long enough to be able to take the credit. He’s been one of the foremost police trainers in the United States, and he refers to his methodology as, “Killology.” The Minnesota PD was a very big spender on Lt. Grossman’s programs, among multiple other large PD’s across the United States.
When the Seattle PD put all of their ‘public-relations’ officers on the front line, that included multiple women, the younger cops, black female cops, black male cops, Hispanic cops, every demographic you can imagine trying to quell the anger. So I asked one of the individuals about the “Warrior’s Training”, Killology, Lt. Dave Grossman. I don’t know what it looks like to blush and crap yourself at the same time, but that was the response I got from them, which is all I really wanted from my interaction with them.
Yeah, it’s been absolute brutality. A few nights ago, I treated a little girl that had been maced directly in the face by one of the police, in front of the police precinct on 5th Avenue. I was literally washing mace out of a child’s eyes. It’s beyond understanding to someone like me. Ultimately, I would call their strategy lazy. Instead of getting involved, and dispersing an agitator, they’re using every hands-off approach that they can with regard to crowd control, as opposed to actually doing policing work. I’ll call it lazy.
A.P.- How are people in the CHAZ resolving conflicts and solving problems without the police?
F.- I can speak to two examples from earlier this week. As always, we have our heads on a swivel, because out here in the PNW (Pacific North-West) there are essentially two camps in defiance of each other, and there’s a large mass of the more neutral population that can swing conservative. Another aspect of it is a bunch of suburban white kids that are, not to speak disparagingly, but they’re in their artist phase. These kids don’t fully understand what a lot of the BLM activists are out here for.
I had to interrupt a group of BLM activists that had gathered around a kid who was handing out leaflets about how the Seattle PD had harassed and abused a Native elder. The BLM folks were upset because they want to keep the focus on Black lives and they saw this kid as co-opting. We’re all a bit hot under the collar right now, COVID response and everything else going on, and before anything got out of hand, I had to plead, “I’m going to read what this guy is passing out. That’s it. So just please listen to me.” I read the little leaflet, and the BLM folks were like, “Cool, we can understand that, but kid, we need to talk about some things that you’re not fully getting.” So the BLM activists explained to the kid why it was offensive and that they would not stand for the co-opting of the moment. The BLM folks explained that they are in conjunction with those seeking justice for Indigneous peoples, but that they can’t afford to let other causes take their steam away, so to speak. It ended up being a really good conversation.
Fast forward a few minutes, and I noticed another individual, that I don’t believe lives on Capitol Hill, some distance away taking pictures. As an activist, pictures are kind of a big thing. We try to ask permission, have no one in frame that doesn’t want to be in frame, give folks time to get their masks up, etc. This kid was unacknowledged, standing at a distance, underneath a shady tree, taking pictures. I walked up to the kid and asked, “What are you doing here?” This kid said, “I was just taking pictures of the park and everything.” The sun was setting, I was there with two other activists, and one of my comrades said, “That’s not the phone he was taking pictures with.” The kid starts showing me pictures from two hours previous, I could see the timestamps. Again, I asked the kid, “What are you DOING here?” He reiterated that he was just taking pictures, and I said, “I can smell it on you that you’re lying. You’re not being honest with me. You need to leave.” The kid protested before eventually leaving.
Those are the two conflicts that I’ve had personally. But there’ve been supposed Proud Boy sightings, people trying to incite problems. The biggest issue we’ve had thus far is people trying to co-opt what’s been happening. We’ve had multiple people show up, be louder over a bullhorn, and put themselves at the front line of a protest.
Aside from these problems, we’re mostly asking people, “What do you need?” Do you need a seaweed and rice wrap to keep going? We’ve got peanut butter sandwiches, we’ve got first aid supplies. You need a mask? Because that one looks a little crappy. Unfortunately we’ve had people stealing masks from tables. It’s been wild, but overall it’s been passive. No one’s coming away bruised and bloody, outside of their egos.
Community resource distribution (courtesy of Francis)
A.P.- This is a hard question to ask, but do folks in the CHAZ fear a government massacre, like the MOVE bombing and the assault on the compound in Waco?
F.- (Long pause) I can’t honestly answer that. I can only answer for myself. For myself, I’m not afraid of that. The reasons for which I’m not, it’s because of: A) the PR nightmare and B) the amount of people surrounding this project that are hoping for the best and preparing for the worst. I know very few people that show up to these actions without a plan to defend themselves if need be. It’s nothing that anybody wants, we’re very clear that we don’t want violence. We just want to live.
What brings me a bit of peace with all this, and I almost want to be taken off the record with this, is the following: the area surrounding is so rural, farmland 20 minutes north and south from here; with that, and with how many left-wing individuals there are in this area, people here are ready for shit to go down in a serious way. There are local collectives that are having people be prepared for whatever could happen. Like I mentioned earlier, there’s been the Puget Sound John Brown Gun Club, which has provided security at events. There’s also the Socialist Rifle Association. There are many activists here that are studied in fighting, studied in gun culture and tactics, and it’s one of those things that people willing to go on the streets can’t not think about. The only way that we can do this stuff without freaking out is to have contingency plans and fall-backs.
With my old anti-fascist community, when we meet someone at a demo, we’ll ask, “Great, you coming back tomorrow?” They’ll respond that they plan on returning the following day, and we’ll say, “Great, are you hiding your identity? Bring another set of clothing, masks, etc. So if you need to duck around the corner and put on a gray sweatshirt and a different-colored mask, you’ll be able to blend back into the crowd again.” Lots of conversations about how to keep each other safe have been happening.
Yeah, it’s a sobering thought, it sucks, and I don’t want to present as though we’re ready for a fight like those fuckers at the Bundy compound. I don’t want to exhibit that, because that’s not what we’re trying to be. I don’t want to say that there’s a fear of a massacre, but that there is preparation. I can say that, if there was an outward assault from the ATF, FBI, somebody like that, it would turn into a guerrilla situation in the city very quickly. This is something nobody wants. With the no-fucking-matter-whatness of this movement that we have right now, I can’t see it going any other way if met with such violent opposition.
A.P.- I know you’re speaking for yourself, it’s an autonomous zone, there are no leaders per se. That said, what do you hope might be achieved with the CHAZ in the hours and days ahead?
F.- Speaking from what I would like to be my own unique contribution to the CHAZ, and what I think it can provide, in my mind these two things are very similar. I’ve been in leadership positions many times in my life, I’ve always tried to lead by example, while leaving people the autonomy to contribute to the larger. What I believe is possible with the CHAZ is that the CHAZ can actually be a source of leadership to other areas that are interacting with many of the same factors. It could inspire them to take out their own space, and do something similar, and have it get bigger, and bigger, and bigger. I would like to see other autonomous zones bloom all across the United States, with the end result being that, at least short-term, the police force nationally becomes as approachable, effective, of service to the community as a small-town sheriff. Where the police are legitimately concerned about people’s safety. Maybe just writing a ticket for that dude who just blew the stop sign.
I say all this coming from an area where, my local county sheriff, he treated me great. I never had any issue, but I can’t say my experience wouldn’t have differed if my melanin count was different. I can say that they treated me like a dipshit when I was a dipshit, and they treated me like an honorable person when that’s what was there. That’s my hope, I don’t know if that’s possible, but that’s what I want to see. I want to see this spread and spread, to where every major city, even minor cities, get to take their own little zones and show what’s possible through that. For lack of a better term, this is the Rojava of the Pacific Northwest right now. That’s pretty cool to me, and from bold places I’d like to see it go a lot further.
A.P.- Do you have a message for the people of the world watching the CHAZ? If so, what message?
F.- You have the life you’re willing to put up with. The only thing in the way of you having what you want is that little voice that just said something. Get that voice out of the way and go see what you can do.
If you wish to assist the CHAZ, donation links (courtesy of Francis)